Going by Michael Biehn and Anthony Starke's ages, Chris Larabee is 41 years old when introduced on the show, and Ezra Standish a mere 7 years younger at 34 years old. Also, while Chris is 6 foot (= 1.83 meters), Ezra is 5 foot 10 inches (= 1.78 meters) tall. Plus, if I remember that scene from episode 2x09 - "Achilles" correctly, Ezra is astonishingly muscular and bulky and most likely weighs at least as much as lean, rangy Chris, the few centimeters in height difference notwithstanding.
So where do these misconceptions come from?
Ezra isn't all huge green eyes and younger than even JD, neither is he small and delicate. He's a fully grown man who should pack a harder punch than Chris, if push came to shove. Or knock Chris on his ass if need be.
We're not comparing Frodo Baggins and the freakin' T-800 here, so please, writing Ezra as a slender maiden and Chris as a brick shithouse? Is totally OOC or, to put it bluntly: entirely divorced from reality.
:::headdesk::::
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I'm soo with you. Chris is extremely skinny and among them all probably the lightweight (I would go so far as to say that even JD is heavier when it comes to pure weight.) And Ezra is indeed very muscular and has very broad shoulders (broader than Chris) and those few centimeters-difference in high isn't that big.
Chris comes across as packing more of a punch due to sheer presence (personality-wise) but not because of anything physically intimidating. He's more the frail one ;-). And maybe because they so often show him wearing his long coat which adds volume.
Read any halfway decent (I'm not even asking for good) Chris/Ezra-stories lately? I'm completely out of the fandom and wouldn't even know where to start reading again anymore.
goldies when other people recommend a 'classic' C/E fic, and it usually takes me at least a few pages before I'm ready to admit that yes, there was a reason I've always believed that C/E stories worth reading were as rare as, say, well-written Gibbs/DiNozzo slash.It's the same attitude underneath. Poor, misunderstood, feminized Ezra and dominant!Chris, with the former suffering through a mulitude of drama/hurt/angst-filled adventures, only to get 'rewarded' in the end by being allowed to bottom for his alpha-male partner. Ewww.
Aside from that, you're right - Chris certainly weighs the least of all Seven. He's top dog solely because of his aura of intimidation and strength of will.
As for newish C/E fic, I'm afraid I haven't encountered much; the only stories I can remember reading and halfway enjoying are
I also had the feeling that Chris' wife was the more dominant/stronger one. I always wanted to see that (the above Chris/Ezra) in a story but those were rarer than rare.
Now that you've put it into words: yes, Chris/Ezra is a lot like Gibbs/DiNozzo. Urgs.
Which is funny because it was never this bad with Chris/Vn or Ezra/Vin. Guess feminizing Vin was a lot harder, not that some writers didn't try their hardest and turned Vin into some poor wraith.
Maybe I'll give the newish stuff a try. I would love to read about the boys again.
Not that I don't know where you're coming from. Ezra is pigheadedly independent, stubborn and used to getting his way on his terms - so, yes, I've also always considered that part of the attraction for Chris. A strong, independent partner who can do his side of protecting in their relationship. Not that I've ever seen Sarah as the dominant spouse in their marriage, because I cannot see Chris as a submissive. Equal partners, however? Definitely.
After all, Sarah must have been uncommonly decisive for her time (and gender) to have defied her father and married Chris against her father's objections.
I always thought she was Chris' equal, at the farm, in their marriage, at home, and that that was why they were so happy.
Oh, believe you me, I've also encountered my share of feminized!Vin in C/V fic. Which is, perhaps, the reason why, back when, I only took a short look around and recoiled in horror. *g*
In V/E fic it's often both Vin and Ezra who get written as submissive and who therefore sooner or later have to break from the Seven (and Chris' leadership style) in order to have a happily-ever-after. Another fannish cliché I could well do without.
I refuse to give up hope that one day, there'll be a C/E story of 10.000 words or more posted to the 'net that's simply perfect.
A girl can dream, right? :-)
That's also a bit how I see Sarah, someone who talks back and has his/her own head. So I guess basically you equal partner and much more dominant than the fandom version.
I've also seen my share of feminized!Vin, but there's also quite a share of strong/stubborn Vin so it's not quite as bad as with Ezra. But like you I only took a look around and usually steered clear unless the stories were written by a friend (try tarlan) or recced.
Huh, now that you mentioned the version with sub Vin&Ezra and them having to leave town I'm flashing back to several stories that were like that. But luckily there were also others that weren't as bad.
Okay, in that case I totally agree!
As for Vin, the only stories with him (they were all V/E ones) I read - and liked - were by cobalt, Starwinder, or ksl. I still think he's the most boring character in the Mag7 fandom, though!
Mag7 is so rife with clichés. I've tried to think of another fandom, but the only one that comes close is The Sentinel. Strange.
I think there are also other fandoms (for example Pros, SW:TPM, Harry Potter, SGA or K/S) that are filled with clichés but also have a high percentage of excellent writers who either manage to steer away from the clichés or make them work. A good writer can take any cliché and make it work or turn it upside down and have fun while doing it. I think a good example for that would be Starwinder's Red Dress (?) stories with the cross-dressing Ezra (not that Ezra could ever make a convincing woman, not with those shoulders)
Part of the problem with M7 that I see is the lack of excellent writers. A very few were very good, some are/were decent, most are/were mediocre. And so the bad cliché stories seem to rule the fandom.
I think Vin had a lot of potential that was never really realized and that the show-writers also often dropped under the table. I would have loved seeing them address the topic of Vin having no problem with shooting someone in the back, something Chris is so very much opposed to. Vin's more ruthless side against Chris code of honor.
There are some good gen-stories that give Vin more depth and have an interesting friendship between him and Ezra. Actually M7 is the only fandom where I read a lot of gen and liked that often much better than the available slash.
And, too, while there's a lot of straight women writing m/m slash, I think some are still... uncomfortable with it to an extent. Maybe it comes from the same place as the "I'm not gay, I just love you" standard, or the authors who make a point of showing that their guys still find women hot, too, even though they're in a relationship with a man. Yeah, I think some slash writers are uncomfortable with the gayness. ::g::
As to Mag7 fic, I'm sad to say I read it practically not at all anymore. Unfortunately my Vin fatigue has overtaken my Ezra love, and I'm loathe to read any fic where Vin has a large part. Which is 99% of Mag7 fic. ::sigh::
Sadly, you're right. I recall with horror several "gems" of the The Sentinel fandom, and Star Trek: DS9's pairing of Garak/Bashir was also rife with stories in which Garak was a towering brute and Bashir and chick-with-a-dick. Ouch.
I totally understand writing what pushes one's own buttons and fulfills one's kinks, but somehow I--I don't know. Expect some sort of self-deprecating warning in the author's notes, a bit of humor and self-awareness. Instead, I've often felt pressured by the (amorphous) majority to conform to the prevalent fannish view, no matter how unrealistic it was.
I think some slash writers are uncomfortable with the gayness
I have to admit, that I don't understand. I read and enjoy gen, het and slash, and I don't try to press any fictional relationship into a pre-existing form... I simply stick to the fandoms that fulfill my own needs, and yes, that is mainly determined by canon as the first and foremost source of that very fandom.
Let's just agree on going "Huh?" on this. The world is full of strange people. *g*
I totally get your aversion to Vin as the little black dress of the Mag7 fandom. For me, he's also never held that place. Although so many authors' tendency to pile and pile pain, misunderstandings and emotional hurts upon poor woobie!Ezra's head is also a very real reason for no longer venturing in past the outer fringes of the fandom. *g*
It is too true, and, IMO, not fitting with canon. Garak, especially, was not the "towering brute" so many portray him as in fic. He was more an intellectual brute ::g:: and definitely not one I'd call macho!
Instead, I've often felt pressured by the (amorphous) majority to conform to the prevalent fannish view, no matter how unrealistic it was.
::nods:: This is a large part of my problem with the Mag7 fandom, which is hugely rife with fanon, the most so out of my fandoms, and I... disagree with so much of it. Unfortunately, I think it's reached a point there where it's the authors who don't write fanon who'll be questioned, thought the oddballs, etc. It's the fanon versions of the boys that're accepted and expected, and it's only perpetuated by the large percentage of fen who came into the fandom without ever having seen the show.
Let's just agree on going "Huh?" on this. The world is full of strange people. *g*
::g:: Well, it is just my own interpretation of certain authors' work. For instance, there's a Big Name author in SG-1 who writes Gen and Slash and is hugely popular. I've enjoyed some of her stuff, too, but... She's one of those who frequently makes a point of showing the boys, especially Jack, still like women, even if it has nothing to do with, or add to, the story. She has, to me, an skewed viewpoint of the dynamics between Jack and Daniel, even the propensity to portray Daniel as the "powerless" one in the relationship. In one story, for example, she said that because Jack was the physically stronger (which, frankly, I don't believe, especially in later seasons), Daniel was the "powerless" one in the relationship because he was merely the smarter one. Wow. That says a lot to me about the author, but is really a... warped view of Jack and Daniel, to my mind. Then, there was another story where she wrote Jack waxing sappy over Daniel's many virtues, after their first time together, and wraps up his internal monologue by Jack saying, gosh, Daniel would be perfect if only he were a woman. Wow. Wow. And that elephant was left standing in the room, unremarked upon for the rest of the story, as if, of course, it's perferctly natural for Jack to prefer Daniel, in spite of all he loves about him, to be a woman. Again, telling me a lot about the author.
But, like I said, it's only my interpretation and I could be totally wrong. I've certainly never heard anyone else express similar reservations about this author's work. ::shrugs::
For me, he's also never held that place.
Exactly. For me, Vin is one of the biggest victims of the Mag7 fanonization. Fanon Vin is so very far removed from Canon Vin, IMO. Of course, even if more were writing Canon Vin, I'd still not be interested because I don't like Vin, be he Canon or Fanon Vin, and Mag7 is all about Ezra for me anyway. ::g:: What I really want is more Ezra/Buck and nobody's writing that these days, alas.
So true. Even if he'd been as strong as an ox, he'd have never shown it openly. With him it was all about hidden potential, not about show-and-tell.
It's the fanon versions of the boys that're accepted and expected, and it's only perpetuated by the large percentage of fen who came into the fandom without ever having seen the show.
Again, so true. As much as I admire the drive the ATF universe developed all by itself (and as unique as it is), its huge disadvantage is that is has become a canon of its own. I hate, hate the widely accepted canon that Chris gets physically violent with Ezra during arguments. :::heaves:::
For instance, there's a Big Name author in SG-1 who writes Gen and Slash and is hugely popular. (...) She's one of those who frequently makes a point of showing the boys, especially Jack, still like women
I had no idea you were reading J/D! I began reading my way through Area 52 in 2004, and I have to admit that I soon discovered a handful of authors whose name is enough of a detriment for me to even attempt reading a new story they've posted. Actually, I was in the US for the Escapade con and had downloaded a huge number of J/D stories to my ebook from which I kept reading for the entertainment of the two friends who'd traveled there with me. Several of said stories led to at least 15 minutes of uninterrupted laughter. *g*
I have to admit that I can't identify the BNF you're referring to, but I guess it must be someone who ended up on my "blacklist" pretty much immediately!
But yeah, there are surprisingly many authors who write Jack as the a/m T-800 (despite his built) and Daniel as a slight weakling (despite his built in the later seasons!). For me, that's beyond comprehension. Are they simply blind or are they so comfortable living in their own world so far beyond canon it's not even funny?!
In short, you're perfectly right wondering about the resp. author's issues. Why do they even read/write slash if they're so uncomfortable accepting the characters as (gay/bisexual) males? Why not write a Harlequin novel instead? In it, at least, the cliché of the powerless, weepy, fainting maiden would be expected instead of repudiated.
... and wraps up his internal monologue by Jack saying, gosh, Daniel would be perfect if only he were a woman. Wow. Wow. And that elephant was left standing in the room, unremarked upon for the rest of the story, as if, of course, it's perfectly natural for Jack to prefer Daniel, in spite of all he loves about him, to be a woman. Again, telling me a lot about the author.
This amount of self-denial about the issues of slash (and the emotional payoffs) - and, hell, about feminism (or even self-respect!) itself - just leaves me flabbergasted. I've encountered that phenomenon myself, but my only reactions have always been confusion and incomprehension.
As for Vin, I've always considered him the valium of Mag7. So much unexplored potential on the show... that remained unexplored in fanfic. His childhood, his past, his status as a wanted man - and yet, no one ever even scratched the surface. Is it the long hair that makes so many authors write him as a though he were female? I simply don't understand. Not that I'm ever going to waste much emotion on the issue - considering I simply don't care about him at all.
Mag7 is all about Ezra for me anyway. ::g:: What I really want is more Ezra/Buck and nobody's writing that these days, alas.
Thankfully, I do care about Ezra, very much. *g*
You know I'll always prefer C/E, but I'm glad Buck isn't as much a cardboard-cutout in fanon as Perfect!Vin. Sadly, there isn't much Ezra-centric slash posted at all these days. I think what we really need is Anthony Starke landing a big tv role somewhere in order to rejuvenate the fandom.
::holds the bucket for the both of us:: ITA. Ezra would never put up with that - Did no one see the ep Serpents? Ezra can and does stick up for himself. - nor do I see Chris doing it. He didn't in GotC with about as much provocation as could be thrown at him. Guess folks didn't see that ep either. ; )
I had no idea you were reading J/D! I began reading my way through Area 52 in 2004
Oh, yeah, for several years now. :-) Probably started around 2004, too; it was right before Season 7 was to start. My fandoms were really slow then producing fic, and I needed something new, stumbled onto J/D fic, fell head over heels for Daniel and that was all she wrote. Pulled up all the J/D fic at Area 52 and spent days there, reading. For once, my fave pairing is the most written in a fandom! I had never really watched the show before, because I am not a fan of RDA's acting, but I had to start watching the show then because of all the canon references I didn't understand in the fic and to see if I loved canon Daniel as much as Fic Daniel. Luckily, I did. It's been my main reading fandom ever since.
I have to admit that I soon discovered a handful of authors whose name is enough of a detriment for me to even attempt reading a new story they've posted.
::nods:: I am happily amazed at the great wealth of truly good J/D fic to be had in this fandom, but, yes, I have a list of such authors too.
I have to admit that I can't identify the BNF you're referring to, but I guess it must be someone who ended up on my "blacklist" pretty much immediately!
Possibly, possibly. ::g:: She does write under more than one name in this fandom.
Are they simply blind or are they so comfortable living in their own world so far beyond canon it's not even funny?!
For whatever reason, it's the dynamic that pushes their buttons. ::shrugging helplessly::
Why do they even read/write slash if they're so uncomfortable accepting the characters as (gay/bisexual) males?
I suspect some of these authors aren't even conscious they have an issue.
This amount of self-denial about the issues of slash (and the emotional payoffs) - and, hell, about feminism (or even self-respect!) itself - just leaves me flabbergasted.
I was flabbergasted, too, at the number of issues inherent in that one little sentence in the fic, followed by the total ignoring of it for the rest of the story. It said so much about the author's views on m/f, m/m, power dynamics, insight into the characters of Jack and Daniel and their relationship, and... None of it was good.
So much unexplored potential on the show... that remained unexplored in fanfic. His childhood, his past, his status as a wanted man - and yet, no one ever even scratched the surface.
Instead, they've sanctified him as the Saint of the Seven and made him unutterably boring. It's inexplicable to me.
You know I'll always prefer C/E, but I'm glad Buck isn't as much a cardboard-cutout in fanon as Perfect!Vin.
True, but look at how many fics where he gets cut off at the knees when Vin is referred to as Chris's "best" friend while Buck is relegated to "oldest." Oy. Don't get me started on that one!
I think what we really need is Anthony Starke landing a big tv role somewhere in order to rejuvenate the fandom.
This past year has been a very good year for him in terms of guest roles on TV shows - far more than any of the others - but, yes, I'd love him to get a regular role on a good show that lasted.
/pimpage attempt
Sorry, I couldn't stop myself. *g*
Ah, where were we? Yes.
First thing I do in any new fandom is get the actors' relative heights and ages and unless anything is said in canon to contradict that information that's what I'll use
I do the very same thing. Once I've fallen for a certain pairing, I immediately visit IMDB.com, because I have absolutely no eye for height and weight, and am so bad at guessing someone's age.
Poor Illya's also suffered a lot in fanon, hasn't he? According to it, he should be barely legal, approx. 1,60 m, and thin as a (bulimic) rail, plus, you know, of course, have the self-confidence of... damn, no apt comparison comes to mind. But I'm sure you know what I mean. *eg*
Whatever persona one of the characters might adopt in bed only has to be backed up with a short, convincing interpretation of their past and mindset by the author, and I can buy almost anything. But day-to-day life? That's what canon already provides us with, and a serious derivation from that requires a really good and lengthy explanation.
Making these guys tender and romantic with each other but still keeping them in character with the rest of the world is the whole challenge of writing slash fiction well, but it's often either failed completely or just never attempted at all. Which is sad.
Exactly. And even sadder is when a prolific author never even realizes the dilemma, even after writing (and posting) several dozen of stories. That always makes me curse out sycophantic cliques in fandom, fanon that develops a life of its own, and superficial authors. Gah.
Are you sure you're not my evil twin? Maybe we were separated at birth?
OTOH, perhaps I'm the evil one ...
Seriously, I agree utterly, entirely and wholeheartedly!
That's usually where I go: Slender??? Small????? Chakotay taller than Paris??? What show have they been watching????
Because canon!Tom is such a spindly wimp, and Chakotay such a towering giant of muscle. Seriously.
Dear fandom, blindness much?!
Anyway, my Tom was based on the one from the pilot, the smartass. Same with Chakotay. There were sparks flying. I had one long series of stories planed where Tom was the seducer and challenged Chakotay.
I think aside from M7 Voyager is one of the worst fandoms, there just never was enough good fanfic around.
Then again, there's shows where someone is playing someone taller than the actor is, r.e. Oded Fehr in The Mummy; didja know Ardeth Bay is bigger than Rick O'Connell? Oded's remarks in the commentary regarding this are pretty funny.
Anywho, fanon vs canon; it's fascinating what becomes popular. One penguin fic and the little beasts are all over the SGA fandom. Ooo-kay. o_O As for Ezra, he's a clothes horse and likes the finer things in life, true, but that doesn't make him maiden-like; he can rescue not only himself but his fellow peacekeepers, thank you very much. Gambling doesn't favor the weak or unintelligent.
This is why my favorite Mag7 writers are NotTasha, Meg Tipper, J Brooks and a couple more I can't remember the names of. Their versions of the guys are men and true to what few episodes I've watched. All gen as I have yet to find a consistently good Buck/Ezra writer. ::pouts::
The penguin invasion of SGA has always been quite hilarious. I'm just glad the same hasn't happened to any fandom since! Although, really, Sheppard as a penguin with some quirky unruly feathers atop its head? Makes me smile.
I'm not a huge fan of the B/E pairing (although I like Buck just fine, and despite the fact that I can see the pairing work), and I like pretty much all of NotTasha's and Meg Tipper's stories also. :-)))
It's fun listening to Oded Fehr's commentary- The Mummy was his first movie and he's all 'Dude! I made a movie! w00t!'. His fellow commentators (Arnold Vosloo and Kevin J. O'Connor) are amused by it.
SGA, I've discovered, is a fandom where a good writer can make you believe anything can and does happen. Those whacky Ancients and their magical tech.
I adore B/E and will take it however I can find it- slash, friendship, Littleverse (either one as kids or both), whichever. I have to admit, there is some pouting about the fact you don't write them. :)
That anecdote sounds really funny! I can just imagine the picture you paint. ;-P
And yeah, SGA is just like Harry Potter in that respect - anything's possible, and anything can be explained (more or less believably, too).
As for Mag7, I so wish I felt inspired enough to write in it again, no matter the pairing. I really, really liked the universe, but these days, my muses refuse to co-operate. Damn. But thank you for your kind words. :-)))